Sovereignty

This subject has been a hot topic for me lately.  What does it mean exactly.  I have a friend that thinks that God is behind everything.  Not just that he uses all things, but that ultimately he causes  all things.  I disagree with this thought as explained via the copy of the email I will paste below.  Since the email conversation, I've come across two texts that have challenged my position that were seperate from anything that had come up between Carrie and I.  One I discussed with my pastor and when going back to the orginal Greek, the way one word is translated into English is actually two different words that bring a different flavor to the verse. We talked it through and came to rest on my original position on the subject.  Today included another such verse, so after I copy the email conversation between Carrie and I, I will post today's email question to Pastor.  God is so big and we are so small....  Perhaps this will be a topic that I have to be content to not fully understand. 

Email to Carrie after lunch discussion:

I'm like a dog with a bone when my brain starts contemplating these issues.

 

Sovereignty of God:  Absolute authority and rule of God  (Bible dictionary)

 

From regular dictionary sovereign is "supremacy of authority"  complete independence.

 

From these definitions of Sovereign I still do not extrapolate that He causes....  for example  He has the complete authority to give mankind "free will".  He has the authority and ability to intervene in circumstances , and the authority and ability to allow circumstances to unfold.  But God is Good and what he does is good.  When it comes to sin, he is not capable of it and he does not cause men to sin... In his Sovereignty he allows men to sin and go their own way.  In His Sovereignty He allowed the Wright murders... hard enough to wrap my brain around, but I still maintain it is a far cry from causing it or it being his will.  We pray that God's will will be done on earth as it is in heaven, but the truth is that things are done apart from the will of God every day. 

 

Not trying to pursuade you really, the ongoing dialogue just helps me think my position through. 

 

Thanks for lunch!

 

Blessings!

T.

Carrie responded and then I replied to her response within her email.  My comments are in color.  Carrie did not respond to my response, but since then I have continued to think, pray about and contemplate my position.

Terri,

 

    This topic is so fascinating to explore! For sure! It gets my brain really cranking! There’s this paradox in my mind when I think of how the free will of man intersects the absolute sovereignty of God.  I completely agree that God can never do anything evil.  (James 1:13 –For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone.)  Yet what if what we consider to be evil God had planned (not just allowed) for good?  Here I’m thinking about Joseph’s case when he told his brothers, “You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.”  (Genesis 50:20)  The brothers’ actions were evil, yet God not only allowed them, the verse says He intended them, which I see as an act of God’s will on purpose.  It is so interesting how different words strike people differently.  I do not read the word "intended" at all to mean a specific act of God's will on purpose.  For example one person could intend to use a scarf to keep them warm, and another to use the same scarf to compliment their outfit.  The intention has nothing to do with the origin of the scarf.  In the same way the origin of Joseph's situation is also irrelevant to God.  He knew what Joseph's brothers were going to do and he intended to use it in a different way than the brothers did.  I believe that God's will was to use the evil the brothers did for good, not to plan their evil.  I do not understand why God would "plan" evil to bring about good.  If it is that kind of Sovereignty why wouldn't he "plan" good to bring about good?  Not to place emphasis on human reasoning, I know that God's ways are not mine, but in my mind, especially in light of other scripture passages about God's goodness, it doesn't make sense.  I sill maintain that God didn't plan the evil - He knew the evil was going to happen and was still able to bring good from it.  (God works all things together for Good for those that love the Lord...)  to me this Biblical account is proof of this passage. Luther says this about Genesis 50:20 (regarding Joseph)  "God causes good to result from evil, not that He wants evil to be done."Somehow this doesn’t negate the brothers’ responsibility in regard to their choice to sin, but as in the case of salvation where those who believe do so only because God chose them and gave them the gift of saving faith while non-believers are still responsible for their rejection of Christ, there is no way with human logic to reconcile both sides of the equation.  Another example I see of this is in the case of Judas.  In John 17:12, Jesus says that “none has been lost (speaking of the disciples) except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.” I think Judas was "doomed to destruction" because of his rejection of Christ.  Yes, Scripture was fulfilled through this act but I think God's inspired word reflects God's foreknowledge of what Judas would do, not what God wanted him to do or planned for him to do.  How do you reconcile the passage that says God would have ALL men to be saved with the idea that He "doomed" Judas to destruction.  Isn't Judas part of "ALL" Again I contend that this is a purposeful choice on God’s part not just to allow Judas to betray Jesus, but to plan that betrayal as the word “doomed” seems to imply a sovereign decree of God.  Again, this does not negate Judas’ responsibility in choosing to sin in this way, which seems like the same contradiction we see in the model of salvation we both agree on.   One commentary says it this way:  "This 'iva' (Greek for 'in order that'), like all the others referring to the Scripture fulfillment concerning the wicked, is not deterministic; it rests on the infallible foreknowledge of God.  God Foresaw all that Judas would become and would do in spite of the grace offered to him."  Knowing what Judas would do, God  used Judas' evil actions to help bring about His plan for salvation.  God can and does bring about good from evil, despite people's bad intentions.  Even when Judas came to betray Jesus, Jesus still reached out to him.  He actually called him friend.  God's grace was still there for Judas to receive, even though God knew Judas would not receive it.  I think that if Judas had repented and decided not to betray Jesus, God would have rejoiced over a sinner who had been lost but was now found.  He then would have still been able to bring about our salvation, but would have simply found another way for Jesus to have been brought to the cross.  But with His Divine foreknowledge of what Judas would do, God chose to use that evil as part of His plan.  In both cases Joseph and Judas God knew the evil that would occur before it happened and was able to use that evil for good.  I struggle with specific examples like Katherine’s murder in the same way as I struggle to understand why God doesn’t just grant saving grace to everyone. He desires all to be saved, and He has the ability to cause everyone to be saved (anyone who is saved was caused to be so by Him), so why not impart that saving faith to everyone? Here I have to trust that God is good, and if somehow His goodness is expressed in a way that glorifies Him but doesn’t make sense to me, I have to leave that in His hands.  I understand why the Arminians choose to assert man’s complete free will in regard to salvation and why the Calvinists support the idea of double predestination.  Both those views are consistent with human logic (either we’re fully responsible for our own salvation/damnation or God elects some for salvation and some for condemnation), but don’t really take the full teaching of the Bible into account.  I think in the end this is one of those questions we’ll just have to keep “chewing on” until God explains it all to us in heaven.  I appreciate the dialogue.

 

    It was great to see you yesterday.  Maybe we could try to schedule a once a month Wed. lunch so we can catch up with each other more regularly. 

 

    Love, Carrie

 

Today's email to my Pastor to keep chewing on this....

 

Dear Rev,

 

Today's reading contained Romans 11:36 which caught my eye because of the sovereignty discussion.  The text as I read it this morning reads: "For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory.  All glory to him forever! Amen" 

 

ESV says it like this:

 

³⁶For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

 

NIV says it like this:

 

For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

 

Wondering about the originial language that is translated as "all" things and "everything" in English they would indicate all inclusive, the good the bad the ugly....  This keeps coming up.....   

 

The thing is as I am reading scripture and if what I read is in support of a thought or helpful for what I'm going through I'm sure it is sent to me straight from God.  I do not want to be ignorant if He is telling me something about himself that is in opposition to how I view Him.  I don't have to like something for it to be true.  I don't have to be comfortable with it for it to be true....  But I don't want to be a person that ignores uncomfortable ideas and puts God in a human box.... He's God and I'm not, I for sure get that.....  If nothing else this whole discussion helps to to see very clearly why there are different teachings on this subject. 

 

My questions sure give you a lot of homework... However, you are the brains of this operation, so  I appreciate your help!!

 

Blessings,

T.